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Blazing Through the Minefield of Political Correctness

Transcript

(introductions)

Jen 0:00
Political Correctness versus inclusion. Is it better to look the part or be the part?

Matt 0:05
How dare you?

Austin 0:07
attention goes where energy flows?

Matt 0:11
How absolutely dare you, sir.

Joanie 0:15
If you can’t hold the public group accountable, then what’s up with group rights?

Matt 0:19
Bigot.

Christina 0:21
Without free speech, there is no true thought.

Matt 0:25
Typical white male,

David 0:31
like the venerable Admiral Akbar would say, it’s a trap.

Jen 0:37
It’s ma’am.

Matt 0:50
Welcome to the epic podcaster weekly dose. Your cisgender straight White male hosts,

Jen 0:56
I’m Jen, I’m normal.

Austin 0:58
Austin, just a white male, Christian.

Joanie 1:02
I’m Joanie.

Christina 1:04
I’m Christina.

David 1:06
I’m David.

Matt 1:08
I hope everybody caught there that that Jen’s normal. Not offensive at all! This week, we’re talking about political correctness. A conversation worth having.

Jen 1:29
It’s true.

Matt 1:30
So we’re I think we’re gonna dive in. Where no other political correctness videos that we’re aware of go. And that’s into what actually is political correctness.

Austin 1:42
Right?

Jen 1:43
We’ve got the definition?

David 1:45
Its a trap.

Austin 1:49
Oh, I don’t know. I mean, all the stuff that I found YouTube blogs also, I mean, it is largely definition that nobody has the guts to like, sit down and, and talk about just that. So I mean, I mean, Google does, apparently.

Joanie 2:06
So the definition according to Google, the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.

Christina 2:25
Well, I found it. I found a definition in YouTube comments. Nice. Someone said it was saying something vague that nobody will get upset about while, hiding your true thoughts. Nice.

David 2:38
JP Sears made a pretty good video about it.

Christina 2:43
whatdid you say

Austin 2:44
JP Sears super spiritual?

David 2:46
It was not a funny video, either? He was like..

Austin 2:49
Oh, really?

David 2:50
Yeah. I was like, whoa,

Christina 2:51
oh, that guy that does those.

Austin 2:54
How to be super spiritual. He’s getting more and more serious. He has a podcast and stuff?

David 3:00
And he actually, he actually got it right. He he? Yeah, he got the point of what political correctness is, or some what is

Matt 3:16
Tread lightly. I feel like you feel like you are a dangerous waters here.

David 3:20
Well, like that’s why I feel like it’s a trap. Because it is a trap. A lot of people go directly for the. Umm.

Matt 3:34
the person that looks like a woman but isn’t a woman?

David 3:36
No, no, no, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s the don’t. And I’m trying to formulate this idea because I can’t I don’t see. And that makes it exciting. A lot of people just like the byproduct of it. or, or, or there’s a term like, like, you’re, you’re, you talk about what it is, but you do not talk about what it is holy crap. I don’t know how to say it.

Christina 4:11
I really love to know what you’re trying to say.

Austin 4:14
All would

Jen 4:17
think for me,

David 4:18
talk amongst yourselves. And I’ll try.

Matt 4:20
Three minutes, I can’t get back. I don’t know.

Jen 4:24
Me What, what I read that really hit home for me was that. Currently, political correctness is all about saying and doing the right things, but it’s not really believing, or pushing forward in a genuine fashion. Whereas, for example, some people might say, you know, my husband and I went to the store, well, that might be relatable to about 50% of the population. But there’s a part of the population that that statement kind of exclude them from relating to me, in a sense, because maybe they have a wife and a wife, or a husband and a husband or whatever. And so when you say something like, my partner, I went to the store, it’s being able to connect with everyone on the same

Christina 5:05
No, because what about the single people?

Jen 5:07
That’s true? I don’t know. I don’t at the end of the day, you can’t make everyone happy. So I don’t know.

Matt 5:19
David with the dynamite drop ins today?

Christina 5:24
I think like, honestly, the only thing I can, that comes to mind for me when dealing with this kind of stuff is it feels like the religious mindset, going into secular stuff. Like, let’s, let’s just make everyone behave, but let’s not deal with the underlying problems. Let’s make everyone this is like a surface level thing. And it’s, it’s To me, it’s masquerading as love. But it’s really just, let’s not let anybody be offended. And that’s,

Joanie 6:00
it’s a choose your own adventure, because it depends on who you talk to. And that’s what I thought when we set out for this topic, I’m like, Oh, I know what that is. I’ve got lots of opinions on that. And then I started researching them. Like, I don’t even know what this is. So I’m with you, David. Like how how, how do you narrow this down?

David 6:16
How do you define it? Because that that’s, that’s the big issue. Like there’s, there’s so many different, it can masquerade as at so many different things. Like is everyone can

Joanie 6:25
be offended about something different,

David 6:27
or bigotry or whatever. And so people can get offended about anything, to be honest. And so how can you actually nail this down? To say, Okay, well, that’s, that’s politically correct, or that’s not politically correct. And that’s the thing, like people think that it’s all about race and all about this and that one, and it’s actually political.

Austin 6:57
I want to know what what

David 6:59
political….

Austin 7:00
I mean, this, this is such a big subject, that it’s kind of difficult to be definitive, right. And it is very much just empirical in your own life. And so I have kind of two questions. One is, am I the Am I the only one who’s ever been in a conversation? and had to wonder if I’m using the right words, to make sure that I’m still conveying my point, but I am being as least offensive as possible.

Matt 7:37
Every time I talk to you, I feel like I have to like dance around your sexual and ambiguize … ambiguity.

Joanie 7:45
Ambiguide?

Matt 7:45
I have to dance around that word too.

Austin 7:50
Yeah It is, anyway.

Christina 7:55
More often feel like, Oh, crap, what did I just say? Like, I know, I’m like, what company? Am I? Am I okay, I don’t know, what

Matt 8:05
was I supposed to abbreviate that word, but the first letter and the word word after it?

Austin 8:14
The other question I have is, what is the goal? Yeah, like, what is the goal of it? Because I was thinking about it, as we were kind of getting ready for this episode. Like, it really is. Any discussion about political correctness, to me has to include a massive discussion around emotions, and emotional fortitude, because let’s be honest, the offendedness of the world only has a hook on anything that actually has the something you don’t fully fully settle in as being something of somebody your identity. So I use the example of I, if I said, you were the ugliest dolphin I’ve ever seen. Like, it doesn’t offend you, because you’re just think I’m stupid, right? You’re not a dolphin. And even if you were, what’s the definition of an ugly dolphin to a human, like, it’s just so far from true that it doesn’t hold any hooks and holds no value. And so the closer you get to things that people are struggling with, internally, emotionally, identity wise, that’s where you start getting to these issues of political correctness. So obviously, you get things like race, or sex or sexual orientation, or belief systems, because we have been abused, and everyone has. Everyone has had their pet moment, that and I’ve called out on previous I think, I know I’ve called it that on the New Age Christian podcast, you know, you have that thing that happened to you. Or that thing that you grew up, you grew up in a family that had this particular, you know, what, obviously not an easy one would be the color of your skin. So you grew up within a family that had non white skin in a white country, or whatever. And the point is, is that you kind of are conditioned to a sensitivity in that area. And therefore that sensitivity now becomes the thing that everyone else has to know you have. Everyone else has to be aware of that. And if you’re in your own world, and in your own head, and you aren’t even thinking about it, and you say something, something innocent, suddenly you’re immediately branded as a bad person. And you’re immediately branded as a bigot or whatever. And now we have a culture where now we’re all conditioned to that abuse. And political correctness to me has become the ultimate expression, an abusive use of word. That’s it’s now becoming the thing that we’ve all been offended by at one point, right? There’s just be

Matt 11:00
sure. There’s definitely two things I want to fire back with that and there’s a you know, first I’m pretty sure there’s probably like a dolphin larping community, that’s like furries that you probably offended they’re probably

Jen 11:12
they can’t be furries if they’re dolphins, because dolphins arent furry

Matt 11:15
dolphin larping community like furries.

I mean, which we think which we went to, was it Red Robin not too long ago, and there was like furries everywhere!

Jen 11:24
because there was a conversion,

Matt 11:25
which is nothing wrong with that. Also, it feels to me like, you know, people have seen somebody weaponize, you know, offensive words, and there’s like a power struggle on that. Okay, well, you’re going to weaponize those offensive words, well, I’m going to weaponize my offendedness. And so it’s me taking back our power when I’m offended.

David 11:52
Technically speaking, like, do you either, would either of you guys have any sort of grounds to be offended? Since you are both straight white males?

Christina 12:05
No, you mean as in like do they have anything to say about anything?

David 12:10
Yeah, right. No, but like, they have no right to be offended. But also, because you guys are. See, this is this is this is one of the things I watched this video by Jordan Peterson. And this is one of like, the things that he was saying like this. He he attaches or he says that the political correctness is actually a mixture of Marxism, and post modernism. And so, like, the video is fascinating. I mean, I think we should totally I’ll make sure it gets on the library, but he like he breaks it down. And I’m so like, the thing there is the like, it’s it’s a, it’s weaponized. And it’s just a way of, of them mix of the, I want to say the left, but I mean, technically speaking, I think both sides are actually using it now probably of, of expressing resentment of taking, taking control of the conversation now. It just, that’s, that’s, that’s the way that they take control.

Matt 13:30
And I certainly think that you’re right in that both both sides, both I’ll put in air quotes sides are using this and then trying to call, you know, it’s like the the pot calling the kettle African American.

David 13:47
I think you mean, coffee without milk?

Matt
The video that JP put up was probably and I actually did see another video saying the same thing. But instead of, of trying to work with this fake compassion or whatever, that that is what political correctness is now, because let’s face it, it’s fake, nobody. Like they just say it because people speak a certain way just because they don’t want to get in trouble. But they don’t really mean it. Or they might not really care about it, other than not getting in trouble. And he said instead of sort of that sort of being politically correct, let’s be kind. This, this whole situation gets taken care of if we are kind to people if we treat people the way that we would like to be treated ourselves.

Jen 16:29
Yeah, I wanted to take it back to Austin’s question about the why are we doing what we’re doing. And I had recently, not recently, like a year ago, I went to a training in the education field where it was kind of like a conference where a bunch of people from the area came and we were having a speak and so the teacher, the beginning was like, okay, you need to introduce yourself where you’re from, what’s your title, and then your pronouns? Like, what? He’s like, I’ll, start off, my name is Joe smo. And I do blah, blah, blah, and my, my pronouns are he him and whatever the other male pronoun is. And I was like, oh, okay, we’re doing that ever. I was fortunate enough to be the first one to go. So I was like, Oh,-my-name-is because I’ve never done anything before that like to say, My, what my pronouns are, because, like,

Matt 17:22
What are pronouns?

Jen 17:24
what are pronouns? but like I am her, she, and I can’t remember their third one, what’s the third? Whatever. So as we go through the class,

Matt 17:33
his?

Austin 17:33
boy girl,

Jen 17:34
no, like, her she

Austin 17:38
Hershys

David 17:39
were going to get banned! we’re so .

Jen 17:39
.So anyways, not important to the story that much. There’s about 35-40 people in the room, and we kind of go back and forth the rows. And then the last person in the back corner happened to be a male by birth, but clearly not identifying as a male. And so this exercise for this gentleman, man, woman, sorry, they

Right I’m sorry, I mean, it in the genuine way it was this activity was for him to be able to speak his truth and say, you know, I’m her and she, and he, sorry, she said their name, did their spiel, and then didn’t even say the pronouns, like, you could tell he was more uncomfortable saying the process than I was who I am clearly, I’m a female, I’m okay with that. And so, it goes back to this why, like, we’re calling out this political correctness to like, give them more power and more confidence. And they, some of them, I’m sure are very cool with, yes, this is who I am, and call me they please or whatever. But there’s a lot of them that are still trying to figure it out. And there, they don’t want to be put on the spot to say, Well, what pronouns Do you wish to use? And that’s the why to me, I was like, What is the why to this? What is the purpose of this, and I couldn’t connect that experience. Why?

Austin 19:04
I think most people would say the way is to have a more fair and equal society. Problem is, is so my opening hook was where attention goes energy flows, or where energy flows attention goes. And so when your attention is on how different you are, that’s where your energy goes. And if you understand the spiritual, the universal law of attraction and the universal law of vibration, there is and this is where you get actor, you know, people like Morgan Freeman, who says, you know, how do we deal with the race problem? Tell you what, you stop calling me a black men, and I’ll stop calling you a white man. Right? And some people in the in the black community love that. And they’re like, Yes, exactly. Just call me a man, right? Call me, whatever. And then you get a bunch of other people that have built an identity around around race. And there is, you know, there’s some people on the picking a subject, I think of like the, the black race subject, and there are people such as

Al Sharpton who he would be out of a job if there was no racism, right? It’s like, it’s like the, it’s no different than the pharmaceutical company, if you really want to heal people’s diseases, when that’s your profession, in your multi billion dollar companies? There’s probably a lot more benefit for you to keep things perpetuating, so that you can actually have your fame and your fortune. And so and there’s and that’s on every subject, you know, Cancer Research, or whatever. I mean, just pick a pick a subject, and you’re going to find that where energy goes, attention flows. And so, and that’s, and that is, to me, one of the things I’ve been a while one of the things that I, in my research for this, come across a couple accepted terms inside of the, say, psychology, clinical psychology world, and one of them is stereotype threat. Right? And this story, you’re telling Jen is very similar, it’s a little bit different application. But the idea of stereotype threat is that they did these tests, where you would have people take like one was a math test. Actually, I like the miniature golf one of the best. So they had the test was miniature golf. And they told two different control groups, nothing which said have, you know, miniature golf, and then they told one group, that it was a test of natural athleticism. And all of the black guys did way better, and all the white guys did worse. Right? And then they said, then they did it again with another group. And they told him that it was a test of something a problem solving, creative problem solving. And all the black guys did worse, and all the white guys did better. And their idea was that the stereotype bias that blacks are athletics and whites are smart type of thing, that when people who hold those stereotypes are told that they’re going to be tested, that the pressure of not proving the stereotype right, actually lowers the performance of the people who are doing the thing. So they did one with math on men and women. And they told him, you know, one group, they said that this test doesn’t, you know, it actually proves that gender inequality in math skills doesn’t exist, and guess what it didn’t. And then another one, they did some, you know, some comments about how women may not be as good at math and guess what they weren’t. And so, the stereotype threat is basically that when you feel stereotyped, it actually proves itself becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Because you you enter into a fear state of proving the stereotype. And so this individual In your meeting is feeling that stereotype threat in this meeting, and guess what? It creates this, this energy that they fall into, and I can guessing in the sense that that’s exactly why that person didn’t mention it. And and based on your version of the story, it seems like there was a threat there, too. I am in this group, and everyone can get there, right. So if you’re a Christian in a group of, you know, secular atheist, you feel like oh, my gosh, if I say something stupid, they’re all going to judge me. Right? And then guess what happens? You probably say something stupid, just right. Because you’re in that fear response, and you’re in that threat of the stereotype has been put on you. And it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter what it is, we all have them. And that becomes you manifest the very thing you’re focusing on. And on the broad scale. People who want equality, I agree with Morgan Freeman, stop talking about the inequality. Right? Not not to ignore it in the sense of what doesn’t exist, but just literally focus on the positive focus on something, what it is that you actually want, not what it is that you want to stop. And I can go on for days.

Matt 24:13
I want to hit on something that you talked about just about, like studies and whatnot, I was taking a contemporary ethical dilemmas course in like 2015, 2016 I can’t remember, what year it was, but I was crushing it in this course, like I was, you know, not the average age of the students that course. But uh, I was the essays I was writing what you wrote, I think a dozen of them are. So we’re literally the example for the first three while she’s trying to get things set up. Like hundred percent you bought, grade wise, you got zero 50 or 100%. That’s how she graded things. And I was the not just 100% I was the example. Like, almost all the way through, we got to a week about I’ll just say racism as a general thing. And part that the course for that week was taking a Harvard test. where basically, they threw up pictures on the screen. And as fast as you could, imagine, there’s like a one and a two, you had to press. You had to identify if the person was white, or black, as fast as you could. And so you do that now. It’s like maybe two minutes of doing that and just kind of just getting this habit of like, all right, why is one black is to just fast as you can like you. And then it the question changed. Put who’s a good and bad.

Christina 25:35
OOH! mm.

Matt 25:36
Your first reaction. I was like, I’ve just been conditioned to push this button for white people. And this button for black people for the last two minutes. And now like the way it was set up, I was basically you were set up to push, you know, white person good, black person bad and it was supposed to expose your racial bias. Like, this test is so much bullshit. And so I explain this on my essay, can you guess what grade I got? Zero, I got hosed.

Austin 26:10
Wow.

Matt 26:12
just teach us that we’re racist!

Austin 26:16
There’s that touches on another the other. So there were three principles that I’ve always thought the political correctness fell victim to collectivism. Right. And collectivism is essentially viewing people as groups, not as individuals. And I think that is a travesty to the human reality. And so like we could go there, and there’s tons of stuff on the end, it’s a very libertarian reality of individual rights versus collective stuff. And I think Jordan Peterson has some great stuff I love is like, one thing if you’re going to give if you’re going to give group rights, then how do you hold groups responsible? Right. But that’s a whole other story. The other one that I also talked about stereotype threat. But there’s another one that I’ve that I’ve seen a lot of this too is to I’m going to be honest, the most racist people I know are leftist. Because everything comes down to it. You cannot have a you can’t have a story on the news. You can’t have any sort of discourse with a leftist? Where does it come down to? What your color of your skin is? what nationality you are? Because it is literally their focus. And by the definition, if you are seeing me because I’m a white Christian male, who’s the racist? Why does my color have anything to do? Why does my my religion have anything to do . you’re saying it should be it should be equality, yet you’re the one that’s calling me out all-the-time. And so the most focused, raised, focused and sex focused and bigoted people I know, are the ones who pretend to not be. And there’s a lo and behold, there’s a term for that, as well. It’s called moral self licensing.

David 27:59
Can I get license? Go ahead. I’m it This actually touches a little bit on on on one of the things that Jordan was saying in this video that I watched, because, um, what what is, let’s say the underlying ideology of the left Marxism, right. Communism. And he summarized it in a very interesting way that I had never heard it before. But he said that the the basic tenet of Marxism is that you have to have one side that is the oppressor and, one side the that is the oppressed. And, and I feel like that, that, that plays exactly into what you’re saying, because they always, always, always have to be seeing who is the oppressed person, and who is the oppressor. And that’s why they have to have somebody that’s the oppressor somebody that’s the oppressed. And generally speaking, it’s going to be the white, straight male, that is going to be the oppressor, and everybody else is going to be the oppressed, and they have to have it, they have to have that dichotomy. So that’s why they can only see race, they can only see all these people that are being oppressed, because that is the paradigm that they work in.

Austin 29:19
Well, it makes, it makes them, it makes people feel good, to. So moral self licensing a really surface level example of it, is when you’re on a diet, right, and you have a salad with a little bit of dressing, and you maybe even go to the gym. And then that night you go, you know, I was really good today. So I’m going to have a piece of cake. Right? So you do a good deed, that makes yourself feel okay to do a bad deed. And so when you spend your entire life using the right words, oh, you are such a good person, you can be a total asshole in your heart, you can be the most judgmental jerk in the world. But if you use the right words, you’re a good person. Right? And that’s where JP series you’re talking about that like the well why would I have to change what’s in my heart? Why do I actually just have to be a nice person? If I can curse you out? In with the most non offensive words? Like, what’s your mouth says is irrelevant. If your heart is not changed, and they want you to change your heart, but they’re using, like you change your language, and that will change somehow change your heart? Actually, it’s doing the exact opposite. Because moral self licensing isn’t a false sense of like, Oh, I did good, therefore, I’m good. It is therefore I did good. Therefore, now I’m justified in being bad. So it actually emphasizes the racism, it emphasizes the negative, because they have lied to themselves and said, Why use the nice word, therefore, I’m not actually a racist. And so it actually makes it worse. Because it’s a false sense of righteousness. It’s a false sense of doing good.

Joanie 31:00
And that’s one of the things I was hearing on the debates I was listening to, was people kept asking the question, okay, all this sure people want political correctness. But is it working? is it doing what they’re trying to accomplish? Is it is it giving them respect is it giving them rights? And I don’t think it is. And then it comes down to it’s a freedom of speech issue. Also, you know, it in so many places, it comes down to censorship, that you can’t even talk about things. But if it’s political correctness, then it’s okay to censor people. It’s okay to not talk about it. And to I don’t know, I think that’s one of the the biggest, there’s a lot of issues. But freedom of speech is one of the things that we were built on as a country. And now half of our country is getting on board with this and clamoring for No, you have to use the right words. And it’s not just a used to be, you can’t say certain words. You can’t say the N word. You can’t say you know these things. But now it’s actually becoming, they want to legislate. No, you have to use these words. And that’s a really big difference. You know, it’s okay to not use condemning words in in polite company, that’s a whole different thing to say, No, you’re not, you have to use these words in all company. And so basically,

Matt 32:24
they’ve been listening to a Nazi for the last minute or so.

Christina 32:30
Well, one of the videos that I watched, was just a pretty brief video just talking about the importance of free speech. And just saying that freedom of speech has become freedom from speech, they were afraid of certain words, or we’re afraid of hearing, Opposing Viewpoints or whatever, like, and that’s that kind of ties into my my hook today was actually a quote from Jordan Peterson. And he was quoting, he wasn’t quite sure, I think who was I think Jung, maybe? I don’t know if it was Carl Jung. Oh, I’ll try to look it up. But I can,

Austin 33:13
he quotes Carl Jung alot.

Christina 33:15
Okay, so it’s probably him then. And you’re saying people don’t think so much as thoughts appear in their heads? And they believe them? And yeah, so he was saying, without free speech, there’s no true thought if we don’t have the ability to express the things that we think about. We don’t have, we’re not able to then basically work out our thoughts or like, actually think, because everything is just staying in our minds. And it’s not really there’s no dialogue? There’s no, um, well, for example, what what is someone who is external processor to do? they can’t express the things that they’re thinking about and work through them. And if we don’t, if we don’t have dialogue, like, making all these thoughts that people have go underground, so to speak, it doesn’t make them go away, it doesn’t work them out, it doesn’t change people’s beliefs, it doesn’t change the way people perceive things are, like, you need to have the dialogue in order to move forward

Austin 34:23
I would argue it makes it worse?

Christina 34:25
Exactly.

Austin 34:25
Because Who are you going to talk to about it? If the don’t agree with you,

Christina 34:30
not to mention, we should want to know, we should want to be able to identify the people that have these negative thoughts. Like, we want those people to be outed. So that one we’re safer from them potentially, and two like, we can engage and help them grow. Like we’re us grow or you know, like, I mean, doesn’t help anything to just push everything down there.

David 34:59
I was, I was was watching a panel on this. And what’s that? Does anyone know that that Harvard professor, that got? He was he he was talking about some information? And I just got the thing for is it pinker? Does this is that ring a bell? to anybody?

Austin 35:19
Yeah, the Harvard professor?

David 35:20
Yeah. Okay. And what that’s what he was saying, like there are a lot of he’s very left leaning. But

Austin 35:30
there’s like the left leaning Jordan Peterson.

David 35:33
Sort of Yeah. And he was saying something about like, in, in academia, for one, this whole thing that you’re sorry, this whole thing that you were talking about that Christina is talking about? That, you know, by not talking about it, by not talking about the subjects, it only makes people that have that bent, go underground and research it and have the one voice in their head, and not have anybody else, talked to them or discuss these ideas. And they only gravitate they will, you know, you have these ideas, you will gravitate towards people that have the same ideas as you do. So that’s why they’re going to go into all these, what they’re going to search out people that have the same ideology that they have. And they’re the ideology is only going to get more cemented in their head. Because they won’t have the dissenting view. And what he was saying is that he said that in in, I guess, Harvard, wherever he, he’s a Harvard professor, he said he has he, he has seen a lot of these. He called them Alt right? Alt right, people that are very, very bright, but they just play the game, when they’re in school. And they blend in because they because he said it’s going to be you know, basically,the concept of, you know, suicidal to their careers, if they come out as being quote unquote, alt right. But in these classrooms, they’ll will be these people that are quote, unquote, alt right, that will just blend in play the game. That’s probably what you should have done Matt and gotten a good grade. Still Four pointed dog.

Could have been four and a half. But no, but that’s what he was saying, you know, if if it’s so horrible. And the funny thing is the the lady that was he was she was a journalist, she’s like, what does that mean that we’re going to let Nazis have a place to debate? And I’m like, dude, you’re just like, not totally understanding at all, what they’re trying to say, you know, you need to have this debate, you need, you know, as as terrible as it sounds, you need to give people that have a dissenting view. Even if they’re Nazis, they have the ability to speak. So that you can argue with them, so you can debate with them, and so that you can have the the exposure of these ideas so that people can see Oh, yeah, this doesn’t make sense. And, you know, anyways..

Matt 38:23
just the idea that we’re going to have people, you know, we’re going to isolate them into echo chambers, and only radicalize their thoughts more, and that’s going to be a good thing is such a wild thought. And I think one of the things that Jordan Peterson said a while back with Kathy, I can’t remember her name is the “so what you’re saying”, host lady was like “to think is to risk being offensive”. I was like, Damn, that’s good. Like, if you any thought, I mean, like, he’s like, she was being, you know, grilling him. He’s like, well, you certainly have no problem risk being offensive to me. You know, it’s been quite uncomfortable sitting.

Jen 39:05
We keep name dropping Jordan Peterson, does anyone want to give a quick who he is,

Matt 39:10
If you don’t know who he is, get out here,

Jen 39:11
I’m just saying,

Matt 39:12
You offend me if you don’t know really keep talking about.

Austin 39:17
He’s, I would summarize in both one he used to be at Harvard now he’s at in Toronto. And he’s a professor of clinical psychology practiced it for 20 something years, and has written multiple books and has become widely known on the internet as a pretty prolific articulator of more conservative ideas, and right leaning ideas. But more importantly, I think you would probably identify as a combatant, against post modernism and the foolishness of a lot of modern thought that I think political correctness and social justice are kind of right down his alley, as far as he can, he can shred some, some pretty, there’s some pretty epic moments where he has taken people apart on on YouTube and whatnot, through debates and discourse, so check them out, if you have any interest in digging into a little bit more articulated version of conservative ideas.

Jen 40:30
Perfect, thanks for sharing that.

Austin 40:34
I think for me, the collectivism takes two forms. And I would say collectivism, in my mind is the external version of collectivism is I don’t have to see you as the individual because I can just see you as black. Or I can just see you as gay. Or I can just see you as a woman or I can just see you as, as an Asian or whatever version as a Christian. I, I don’t have to see you because I see your group. And I think that is that is the very thing we’re trying to fix by making people into more groups. And so that’s the external side where I see I develop this collective mindset for other people. And I in those labels, while they can be useful, they can be prisons as well. And then on the inside we were we were just talking about I would call tribalism, right. It’s still collectivism. But it’s, it’s now a more of a personal identity of I have my tribe. I actually was on Facebook this morning, and came across a discussion on a spiritual topic, about witnessing to people and how, you know, you get rejected out there in the public and, and people don’t want to hear about Jesus and everything. And so then you have this common experience, where you where you have this moment of rejection when you are trying to genuinely reach out, and I got rejected. And so I go back to my church, and I tell my story about being rejected. And all these other rejected people share their stories with me. And we get to form an even larger tribe and an even better tribe. And now, the opportunity for more people to join, this tribe just shrinks, because now you have a common experience. And then it shrinks and shrinks and shrinks, which is why churches aren’t growing, because they This is my tribe. And unless you’re born into it, or you marry into it, or some random chance, there’s the tribalism and the lack of growth inside the church, I would say is directly proportionate to the overgrowth of political correctness, and collectivism in general, that it is they are kind of a sliding scale, the more collective you are externally, the more tribal you are internally, because it’s so much safer with my group that loves me. Because I go out there and I use the wrong word, I will get murdered. And or I’m going to lose my job. I mean, literally, people lose it. Don’t you guys have the recent stuff with YouTube and being sent in censoring conservative voices, that there’s people whose entire livelihoods have been dismissed because they, they’ve said the wrong things. And so, of course, you’re going to then gather around people who don’t murder you, and don’t stab you in the back and don’t hate you. And then you’re going to also collectively, rah rah against that other group who did it to you. And so now you’re just going to deepen the trenches in which you don’t like them, and they don’t like you. That’s unsafe, and this is safe. And it’s all because of an inability to see the individual. And to understand I’ve kind of gotten to the point where I’m willing to sit down, if somebody tells me, Hey, I, I would rather you call me this? Well, it’s kind of just be a nice guy. And it’d be nice to just have a nice guy, be a nice person, and call them what they’ve asked you to call them. But you don’t have to push back if, if a black man says call me African American, okay, then Don’t be a jerk. That just be nice, be kind, it’s fine to pick the labels that you’re comfortable with. But it’s at the same time to immediately assume the moment someone calls you the wrong thing, that there was on purpose, or it was mean spirited of it, that is not helpful. And the it does come down to, to me the ability to see the individual and honor the individual. And if you’re not able to honor the individual, then Shame on you.

Matt 44:41
You’re reminding me of a hashtag that I found on Twitter, like a couple years ago, and it was like #realclergystories or something like that. And I was just scrolling. So cus the time, I was remember the clergy, and got to one point and just someone like talking about how how outraged they were that their staff wasn’t putting together a black lives matter, you know, series. And I was like, I’d like to identify people as you know, individual children of God. And basically, I got this guy, okay, look at this guy. look at this guy! Like she tagged a friend who like wrote a book about how identifying your inner racist and I was just like, all rriiight……

Austin 45:27
I’ve been told so many times, but it because I, I, I will speak openly about this stuff. And I’ve been told by people who love me like, are you sure you’re not? You should check to see if you’re racist. Like actually, the last time that I looked at somebody to the better color skin was years ago, the last time somebody asked me to look at the color of their skin, right? So you look at it every day. I don’t even pay attention to it

Matt 45:54
while you have a black friend. Right? So you’re good?

Austin 45:57
Well, that would that would go right with nine self licensing. I’ve done my good deed now I can be a jerk.

Matt 46:04
And I meant that in jest, nobody would crucify me on that one.

Joanie 46:08
People do use that as an excuse that they’re like, No, no, I’ve got black friends. I’m not racist. I have black friends. So and they do they use it as more licensing for whatever, trying to do.

Austin 46:19
If you google it, one example they us is I voted for Obama. Yeah.

Matt 46:28
I chose my friends with a certain melanin count in their skin.

Christina 46:34
I think that I mean, it’s pretty obvious that people that are quick to get offended, a) carrying wounds, yes. From stuff and b) are not secure in their identity. Plain and simple. Like when you’re secure in who you are, like you were saying earlier, the whole dolphin, whatever thing? You don’t you’re not that concerned about what people say. And so ultimately, there’s a lot of hurt people, a lot of people in pain. And we’re trying to fix it with with this.. like this is this is not this is not fixing it. Like Like we’ve talked about already. It’s not it’s not fixing it.

Matt 47:16
Are you saying that the law isn’t fixing things?

Christina 47:18
right? Exactly.

Austin 47:22
Almost like freedom is the way to salvation. Naaah

Christina 47:27
But what you were

David 47:28
I thought we established, there wasn’t any salvation,

Austin 47:31
what you were saying earlier Austin, if people feel safe, and they don’t feel like they having to prove themselves, then they perform better, or they have better whatever,

they perform normal,

Christina 47:47
normal, yes. Right. So in that context, it would maybe seem like it’s there’s a space for this? Because before making people feel safe, with our words, is that something that you feel like you were saying at all or

Austin 48:08
there is actually stereotype threat is the negative there actually is stereotype lift as well, which is they did the same tests and the ones like where they it was Asian women that they were doing math with. And, and like when they when they talked about how women are less Mathy than men, there was lower scores. When they talked about how Asians are more Matthew than Americans, it was higher scores, right? And so yes, it is there is an element of creating that safe space that I think we should strive for. And that’s where I was going to go, because I’m pretty con on like all of the crap surrounding it. That’s why I started out with Why are we doing this? And that’s what I was going to go a little bit more on the pro side. Next time I got around, but yes, I think there are certainly pros to what we’re trying to do, right.

Christina 49:03
The question is, is it and like, what? Or is it? I mean, it makes it it makes it it to some extent sound relevant to be, quote unquote, politically correct. So do we do we fake it till you make it, you think, but yet, we also have been saying, like, faking it isn’t really addressing the underlying issues. But yet, someday, I mean, honestly, though, like, I’ve thought about how much stuff is not okay to say now, that was okay. And or not thought about? Maybe even five years ago?

Matt 49:45
Oh, dude, I was totally thinking about what, like, basically 10 years from now, how crucified will get for whatever we say in this. There’s no safe space in this podcast, like it’s all going to get

David 49:56
it won’t be able to be a president. dang It!

Matt 49:59
I just came of age….

David 50:02
Crap! No, hey, what all what I was gonna say is like, the problem here is… Let’s take it political, there is a party that is trying to make this a thing. And it’s not going to go away. Because it’s, it’s their tool, a tool that they have. They rely on the on it to get the votes, they wanted the want the drama to be there. And the people that follow them are people that even though that they don’t see the end game, they they just see the froth if you will, they they see that, oh, yeah, well, of course, I mean, I I’m not a racist, I don’t want to be racist. And yeah, and look at all the things that we need to pay for and look at, you need to feel bad, because you have you were born with all this privilege, and you were born with this. So therefore, you need to, to speak this way to appease your guilt. And and, and the aim is to make this even more of a thing. Because that’s how they get votes. That’s how they keeping the drama is how is how they stay viable, to be honest. And so until and, and let me say this, though, here, that I feel like the other side is kind of playing the same game, and now they’re trying to ride the coattails of it in, and they see that they’re trying to appease the quote unquote, masses, also, and play the same game. So that’s that, you know, there’s until we realize what is going on, on as a country. And that this, this game is, is a game and is a tool to enslave and to divide our country. Until we realize, and and again, I’m going to say this, not just one side, it’s both sides now. But until we realize that, that’s what’s going on as a collective as a country. And and say and realize that it’s not furthering, it’s just creating resentment, and creating a way to, to to give a moral license to one side, to try to take away what the other side has, because they didn’t, they don’t have any right to it. Because it’s what they were born with. I don’t know, whatever. But until we realize what it is, then we’re not going to move ahead.

Austin 52:57
You’ve been listening to Qanon?

David 52:59
No,

Austin 53:01
well, this is one of the things that’s been on Qanon is basically they want us divided.

David 53:05
Yeah

Austin 53:06
If the American public is divided, then the smallest little class of elites that all live around Washington DC can keep the circus going. And we’re arguing about the right words to use for gender pronouns. And they are stripping our rights away one bill at a time. And so the division is certainly both sides. But highly highly conspiracy theory of you. I’m just kidding.

David 53:37
But he’s not. That’s what Jordan Peters, that Jordan Peterson again, that’s what he was saying. When the sense it, he says political correctness is it’s a Marxism combined with post modernism. And so, um, but I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna see if I can decipher my notes here because he went he says, it’s, it’s, it’s, he says Nietzsche predicted it. But he says, okay, that you have people that have a certain certain thing. Let’s say they have, they have some sort of that you’re white, you’re white male. So you have this sort of privilege. And so what they what they say what he said was that you that resentment is generated, because let’s say I’m a Latino or a black person, and I see this white male, and that they have gotten all this stuff. So my ,my I have resentment towards the white male. And then that that resentment, what it creates is criticism. And you want to heck,

Matt 55:09
when writing like a fourth grader doesn’t..

David 55:12
No, something fell on my head, just out of the blue.

Matt 55:16
That was God’s smiting, you

David 55:18
maybe…

Christina 55:19
It’s not like a gold feather. Okay.

David 55:26
So where it works is post modernism, no perception is above any other perception. In other words, your reality is not cannot be above my reality. So therefore, I have the right to bring you down to where I am by taking your privilege, your reality. So that’s how I do it by saying that you’re morally abhorrent, because you are who you are. And now I have more, right. I have, I have the same right to do, and to have what you have, therefore, by you having that in me not having that, then that’s a moral problem. And so that is the gist of essentially the gist of political correctness, that you have something and that I don’t have something, therefore, you must be doing something wrong. Therefore, you must be morally abhorrent, because you have something and I have the right to have what you have. But since I don’t have it, there’s a problem. There’s a morality problem.

Austin 56:39
It is very much a labeled as a morality problem. I know in the research I was doing around these different terms self moral self licensing, stereotype, you know, threat, all this stuff. There was a lot of stuff that was coming up about moral relativism. And it was all in on the favor side of political correctness. That moral realm, the relevant the morals are relative, and therefore, all moral should be considered equal. Right. And, and I am I am very, in the in the Christian sense, I’m very liberal that all things are permissible, right? It’s the Paul says that, and so in, in that I’d actually agree that morals are relative to your upbringing, it is it is relative to a lot of things. But to then label somebody else as immoral, is the ultimate law and you are the lawgiver. And that’s the you know, I’m supposed to be okay with yours, but you’re not okay with mine. And that’s okay. Because I have more money than you. And so apparently, I’m more of an evil hassle or whatever.

David 57:53
That’s why the Marxism Marxism goes that you have that you have more it, but therefore you must be an oppressor. And therefore, that’s where that that’s where your morality goes out the window that okay, you are an oppressor, you have more. You’re an oppressor. You’re not morally allowed to have more than I have

Austin 58:16
I haven’t oppressed anybody for at least a few weeks. But no. That’s sarcasm. For anybody who listens to this episode 10 years from now, thatswas a joke.

David 58:30
And, and, and the narrative, that narrative keeps getting beat into us over and over. And the end game is not visible to a lot of these people to

Matt 58:44
well, it needs to be in the you people.

Austin 58:49
What do you mean, you people?

Matt 58:50
I mean, it’s probably around the circle.

Jen 58:57
Definitely, I think political correctness is, is all about putting your legalistic hat on and checking all the boxes, I did this I did this. I’m a good person. I said all the right things. And really, it’s taking a bigger look at the entire system, I think about education system where Marxism looks at the oppressor and the oppressee, and we have this big push and curriculum about no bullying and being safe. And then bullying is this word that we just throw out? You’re bullying me your? And really, it’s just, no, I’m making sure you play the game, right? And so looking at that, and I see our children coming up with this mentality of if you don’t come in line with me, then you’re not right. And with our whole dependency on social media and getting how many likes, can I get in that justification? It’s only feeding into this bigger picture system of how can be politically correct, how can we keep each other divided, so we can continue losing our freedoms, and so wake up and fix yourself?

Austin 1:00:12
Believe me, it comes down to you know, we’re in a clash of societies that humanity’s never had to deal with. tribalism was okay, because you needed it to survive. And collectivism was legit, because it was largely a lines of, of language and money. And, like you would nations versus nations as well that their French were English. And now you’ve got specially in America, this melting pot, you’ve got cultures, just from all over the world coming in these, the this one place, and then you add the internet. And you’ve got how many countries and how many viewpoints and how many political and religious and everything represented on your Facebook feed, or your Instagram or whatever. And so the clash of tribes is forcing a response. And while I believe political correctness is about one of the dumbest answers we’ve come up with, to, to the modern problems of humanity, I do think the intention of it is is not is is is needed, because there is a clash. And it is never been, as I made a list of kind of concepts that I think could replace or should be that at the heart of any effort. And that is one is empathy, right? Understanding that people need to be there, they’re hurt. And then you need to be empathetic. One is respect. Honor, one is curiosity, right? A lack of curiosity, definitely shuts down discourse, because you just already know it all. One of his logic, heaven forbid that we actually just think through stuff. And another one that I had was giving yourself permission to be wrong. Because a lot of people are just so horrified by the the idea that they’ve been wrong for 20 years, that it takes a massive amount of shift for somebody to sit down and a debate and go, when was the last time you heard anybody on Facebook go, you know what, you’re right, I was wrong. Like, but you have to give yourself permission to be wrong and not have it be some sort of mark on your character, that for 20 years you were wrong. As a matter of fact, let that be a mark on your character that you changed, because most people don’t. And so I think those are the markers that I think could be positive towards trying to solve this thing. But political correctness itself is just so fear based, and all the energy is going into continuing to lock people away from each other. And it’s not working, and it’s not going to work. And it’s it could break a lot if we don’t figure out how to kind of shift the energy of what we’re trying to accomplish.

Joanie 1:02:55
So I found a quote from a Dr. Janet Albertson says, you do, I don’t get to cry for freedom of speech, just to defend only those with whom you agree. And that that really struck me and it made me think I saw on Facebook the other day, I think it was at a gay pride rally in New York, there was a guy that I don’t think was gay, but he was wearing a sign that said free dad hugs. And so all these people that have been rejected by their fathers could go and just have a dad hug. And how so many people just lost it. And just sobbed because of the pain and the rejection that they had gone through, as Wow, it really opened me up, obviously, I haven’t experienced that kind of rejection. So to be open to the dialogue to be open. Like Normally, I just kind of I’ll be honest, I kind of scroll past the Gay Pride stuff. For some reason, this caught me and I’m like, Okay, let me learn a little bit more about what’s going on here and people’s experience. And hearing people’s being open to hear people’s stories, if we can get past some of the rhetoric and of the left, right, and, and some of the some of that kind of stuff and hear people out. And be open to thinking new thoughts, sharing experiences. And that also means being willing to share our own experience. I haven’t experienced discrimination. So for someone that has lived that their whole life, that may be a whole new thought, like, wow, people think the way I do, because I haven’t experienced that. So everyone has their experience, and they have a reason for believing what they do. Otherwise, you know, as you’re saying, You believe what you do, because you believe you’re right. But being open at least to trusting that and other people that they believe what they do, because they think they’re right. And there’s a reason behind what they believe

Austin 1:04:48
you’re a woman are you sure you have the right to say that you’ve not been discriminated against?

Joanie 1:04:52
I have, experienced it.

Christina 1:04:58
Basically, we just we need to continue expanding our ways of thinking our understanding of other people. One of the videos I ran across, the lady was saying that changing people’s minds beliefs society in general, we only have two tools. And that’s persuasion or violence. So if we shut down the option of persuasion, obviously, there’s various ways you can persuade people. You call it that, but talking about free speech generally. If you shut that down, then I think. But I thought to though, that I feel like the most powerful change and this is something that you just spoke on is, is love. And that’s not just words. That’s not violence. It’s showing love. And I think that’s the bottom line. Like you said that the hugs thing that seems like something simple. And who would think that would really make that big of a difference, but sounds like it was making.

Austin 1:06:14
It was a conservative Christian fundamentalist that was doing it. There was someone who still disagreed with the, quote, unquote, life choice of homosexuality left

Joanie 1:06:23
he just loved people because they were hurting.

Christina 1:06:25
Yeah, we actually have a friend that did that with free mom hugs. So yeah, that just love people don’t feel like it’s has to be that

Austin 1:06:38
even if they’re my enemy, or I disagree with them?

David 1:06:49
Cuz I was looking for that passage where where Jesus, they were, they were going to stone a woman that was caught in adultery. And he was right, he wrote on the ground. And he said, He who is without sin cast the first stone. And one by one they left. And then he asked her, where are those who accused you. And she said, they were there are gone. And he said, nor do I accuse you, and go and sin no more, I think I think that’s how it goes. But the what, what I would call for people to do is it kind of echo what JP says, Be kind. Um, and I think we’re just we’ve just kind of been saying the same thing. But you need to love, you need to love the I feel like political correctness, this whole concept it has, is made to divide. And that’s what it has produced. And the way to counteract that is to love you know, there are so many so many stories, so many things, so many things to be gained by opening up our lives to other people, specially people of different races, different ethnicities, there are so many stories that will enrich your life and make you thankful and I and I feel like that’s, that’s that’s the antidote, that’s what we need to be doing in this country. People have, maybe Yeah, maybe other different orientation than you are and, and showing them that you are not judging them, showing them that you are not condemning them, that, um, that you might not necessarily agree with them. But that that doesn’t matter that we can still be the we can still be civil, we can still share life together. And so I feel like that’s, that’s my call, you know, that’s the best way to counteract racism, that’s the best way to counteract bigotry. Not have some sort of fabrication that, that makes us be so worried about what we’re saying that we have to be very aware of who we are saying it to, you know that so that’s. Yeah, my two cents love more be kind.

Matt 1:09:44
Nice. There was a posted on my Facebook feed from a buddy of mine named Tyler, and I think this fits so well with what we’ve been talking about today. And he said,” indignant rant about x, come on people why is still a thing. It’s the current year.” I responded that: ” I too, am outraged, already started my petition against this evil. ” You know, like, I don’t want to stand here and act like the World’s Fair. You know, but to pick a few things. So that we can then shame people who aren’t on that train of thought and their life in at this point, and then elevate ourselves that so that we are on that, that train of thought, I think is silly. And, you know, forcing our moral law on somebody else. Is is not the answer is the answer. You guys have all said love is. So don’t Don’t, don’t fall for the trap of reaching for the law when you can just love So that said, check us out on the social medias at epic ideas, check out our Patreon account. We’ve got some goodies over there. Wow, I should really kind of research how to end this thing. Something

Austin 1:11:11
like you’re rambling it’s good. Perfect and

David 1:11:17
Outrage!!! Say no to X!!!

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